Let’s recall that the first time Max Blumenthal filmed inebriated American Zionist expatriates/olim, Serious Objections were registered: they weren’t really Jews, they hadn’t had their Bar-Mitzvot, they were atypical, they were typical-therefore-uninteresting (funny how those two seem to be in a bit of contradiction, right?). We were told that the more effete yehudim of Tel-Aviv would comport themselves with considerably more decorum, that these were simply crude beasts, hardly deserving the descriptor, “Jew,” that mainstream Israeli attitudes were markedly more refined if not altogether-transcendent, etc. etc. etc.
Umm so what now?
“The Iranian are fucking asshole, I hate them all,” “Obama…it’s a cooshi, a ‘nigger,’” “I’m a gezan [racist],” “Obama is a Nazi” (What??).
I may be spoiling things. Watch it. Watch the commentary on Iran. And then query how we are funneling billions each year to this state, while we weep for Neda, and while Nico Pitney, who 2 months ago probably couldn’t find Iran on a map, live-blogs the uprising. Wonder how our Democratic VP can barely hold back his gleeful urge for Israel to bomb Iran–one possible trigger for the 3rd (last?) World War. And ponder the forthcoming verbal contortions from Israel’s apologists in American culture, as they defend this latest horrific montage depicting the youth of that country’s most cosmopolitan and urbane city.
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I loved the “Jewish Druze” what the heck does that mean?
This new video was so full of factual mistakes it’s amazing. Lets ask Max (Ajl and Blumenthal) about the Indian reservation they rent their houses on, no memorial?
Max does his best to depict Israelis as evil. I can find you blacks in the US that say they hate whites, whites that hate blacks, muslims that christians, christians that hate muslims and yes, jews that hate blacks, christians and muslims as well. If you focus on those people you are trying to propogate hate and divide. The same thing the left decried Bush for doing to Iranians the left openly accepts when it comes to jews in Israel. Go to an arab village in Umm el Faham and ask them what they think about their jewish neighbors. Lets not kid ourselves as well, Iranian jews would be to scared to protest and speak out like the Israeli arabs here, as well as palestinian christians in gaza and Shias in Suadi Arabia. Max you hatred towards Israelis has blinded you and turned you into a bigot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxMJ4EzPEw&fe…
Mike–
I have seen this video. My favorite book on the I-P conflict is Michel Warchawski’s On the Border. I don’t deny there are different opinions on this in Israel.
Course’ we’re not to mention that this kind of attitudes may just come an eensie, teensie bit with the ethno-centric territory, that would be ‘not balanced’.
Best one was that well-groomed girl near the end: Arabs should really be grateful that we stole their country and made it a better place. Ungrateful natives (same all over the world, you know!)
Apparently even satirical description of the video makes me a “bigot,” or “truly pathetic.” These videos are beyond astounding.
I posted a video response above. This is a Max Blumenthals video depicting the peace movement in Israel.
His recent video is wrong in so many ways.
1) If you look hard enough you can get people to make racist comments in any society.
2)Jewish Druze???? what is a Jewish Druze, it just goes to show how little Blumenthal knows about the region.
3) Cooshi does not mean niger it means negro, black, as the person stated, changed his words.
4) The Israelis themselves include lots of dark skinned people as Blumenthal pointed out himself to one of talkers, who was dark skinned. He stated in broken english, which most of the interviewers had, that the problem is with muslims. You go live in the middle east where the heads of state refer to jews as pigs, not to speak of the rest of the population and then say you like them.
5) The protest for the Nakba at Tel Aviv university is highly offensive to most israelis because it supports the 7 different armies attempt at genocide in 48. It laments the fact that the palestinians lost the war and that Israel won the war. Now most people don’t have a problem with Israeli arabs feeling such a way but to protest it is a little far fetched, none the less the protest is not stopped or the people protesting beaten.
6) Name one country in the middle east that would allow such a protest. Jewish Iranians would never protest in such a manner in Iran. Bahai’s in Iran would never protest in such a manner or for such a cause. Christian arabs in Gaza would never protest in such a manner. We know the reasons why.
7) Though you only took one or two Israelis saying stupid things in order to say
” We were told that the more effete yehudim of Tel-Aviv would comport themselves with considerably more decorum, that these were simply crude beasts, hardly deserving the descriptor, “Jew,” that mainstream Israeli attitudes were markedly more refined if not altogether-transcendent, etc. etc. etc.:“
You ignore that there are just as many Israelis in the video saying the opposite thing. One is even protesting in the Nakba demonstration. Where is the mainstream? probably between those two camps.
What are you? nothing but a bigot.
Next time i’ll film some chinese saying bad things about blacks or blacks about whites or whites about blacks and try and depict a whole society as racist.
You are truly pathetic.
Mike–
(1) Correct, no doubt; the question is, how hard did Max have to look? I don’t think that hard.
(2) Max has clarified: “Correction to video. Blumenthal: “We have reviewed footage of the Tel Aviv U student identified as a ‘Jewish-Druze Israeli.’ He describes himself over and over (and quite defensively) as a Jew while several of his friends identify him as a Jew with mixed Druze heritage. While it is very rare for Jews and the Druze to intermarry in Israel, the description by the student and his friends accounts for the student’s designation, one that some commenters have challenged.“
[I thought it a strange designation too]
(3) Cooshi may not mean “nigger,” but it does mean “negro,” shachar means black. We all know the difference between “black” and “negro.” This is not the 1940s.
(4) “He stated in broken english, which most of the interviewers had, that the problem is with muslims. You go live in the middle east where the heads of state refer to jews as pigs, not to speak of the rest of the population and then say you like them.“
Yes, you’re correct that hate marks the specific enemy. So? I don’t need to go live in the Middle East to be inculcated in racist bigotry. I can go to a protest for the Free Gaza ships and get called a “terrorist” by some idiot driving by in his SUV. You don’t get to have it both ways: the tiny-minoritarian Israeli peace movement is far less bigoted, if at all (depending on sub-sections and to whom we refer). It’s plainly possible to be Jewish in the Middle East and not be a bigot.
(5) Israeli ethnic cleansing occurred within the confines of the 1947 UN partition lines. This was illegal. It hardly “supports” the “attempt at genocide” but commemorates the catastrophe that befell the Palestinian people. come on now! other people can suffer too.
(6) That Israel allows such a protest (and barely–and it murders non-violent protesters in Bil’in and Gaza) and other Arab or Muslim countries don’t is hardly a cause for celebration. One can always morally situate oneself as better than someone.
(7) This is a rough description of the mainstream response to the initial Blumenthal video. I “ignore”; what should I be paying attention to, then? The argument was that mainstream Israelis would be more refined than those expressed in the first Blumenthal video; well, they are. But what they say is still astounding. “go to gaza”!
“What are you? nothing but a bigot. ” A bigot characterizes an ethnic group on the basis of individuals and then ascribes negative characteristics to the whole group. One, Jews are hardly an “ethnic group”; two, I don’t do that, hence, I’m not a bigot; three, you conflate Jews and Israelis (one can hardly be bigoted against “Israelis.“
“Next time i’ll film some chinese saying bad things about blacks or blacks about whites or whites about blacks and try and depict a whole society as racist.“
There is a difference between depicting a society as racist–which I anyway don’t do, hence the reference to “mainstream,” etc.–and being a bigot. The first could be–although seldom is–an accurate analytical description.
“You are truly pathetic. “
Maybe, but certainly not for the reasons you outline.
It also is not just that Max managed to film such racists. It is the response of Zionists to such a film — anything but recognition and desire for change. I don’t hear Mike — or other Zionist supporters saying — how can we change Israel to remove such hate.
No. They point elsewhere, and say, “Look at Arab/Egyptian/Iranian sins!” as though they exculpate Zionist mis-deeds. Or they say, such views are fringe views. The mirror is a hard place to look, I guess
Jews aren’t an ethnic group???
So you consider yourself jewish because you light candles on friday, give me break. When the nazis went after jews it was enough to be 1/8 jewish to be considered unpure enough to be killed. When the jews in spain converted to christianity, many of the “new” christians, the morranos, were attacked as jews. Christopher hitchens an ardent atheist considers himself jewish. Feynman and Marx both atheists, with the latter being raised christian, are considered jewish. Why? Are you in touch with reality?
Your definition of a bigot is dead on to what you do with Israelis. If you can’t see that you are blind.
In response to the person below. There will always be stupid, ignorant people in all societies, especially ones which are targeted for annihilation and are called the most degrading language by elected officials of other countries.
Syria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQERHieZHcg
Egypt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7w_tlNUqc&fe…
Saudi arabia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hpc_-5WsXI&fe…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJYWKwv5tYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s_ipPfLqfk
and others.
What is mainstream if not taken directly from the political jargon and television shows?
To think that Blumenthal just randomly showed us all the videos of interviews he did is naive at best. Blumenthal has an agenda. The stupidity of the kids is apparent, moving from one thing to another and them negating what they themselves say.
What i find remarkable is the hypocrisy the left lives in. You attack the right justifiably for mischaracterizing blacks, muslims and even jews. Then you go and do it yourself to Israeli jews by editing and filming stupid racist people and portraying them as the whole society. How many people did it take Max to find the two groups of people that night?,How much do you want to make a bet it was more than 20 groups meaning less than 10% hold these views? But this is mainstream, right? Maybe for a bigot
Mike
(1) tone. I’m “pathetic,” a “bigot” guilty of “hypocrisy,” not “in touch with reality.” If you want to disagree here, fine. It wouldn’t cost you much to do so in the manner in which you’re treated.
(2) “So you consider yourself jewish because you light candles on friday, give me break. When the nazis went after jews it was enough to be 1/8 jewish to be considered unpure enough to be killed. When the jews in spain converted to christianity, many of the “new” christians, the morranos, were attacked as jews.”
Yes, bloodline obviously has a great deal to do with it, but one merely need look at the clear phenotype differences between many groups of Jews to realize that the term “ethnicity” may be troublesome. That one can convert to Judaism makes it rather clear that ethnicity alone doesn’t quite do it.
“Christopher hitchens an ardent atheist considers himself jewish. Feynman and Marx both atheists, with the latter being raised christian, are considered jewish. Why? Are you in touch with reality?”
The issue again is complicated, more complicated than you make it out to be. Halachically a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother, period, or a convert. So does Jew=ethnicity. Definitionally, no.
(2) “Your definition of a bigot is dead on to what you do with Israelis. If you can’t see that you are blind. “
I may be blind then but I am not treating Israelis as a holistic group (and how are Israelis an ethnicity???) and neither should you. Ta’ayush, Anarchists Against the Wall, Michel Warchawski and Ezra Nawi–they are Israelis too. You are the one taking the worst tendencies as symbolic of a society; I take them as symptoms of an ill afflicting the body politics, and Israel as a political community can not be attacked in a bigoted manner (and again if Israeli actions spur anti-Semitism it’s because Israel’s “defenders” conflate Israel-the-state with Jews-the-people/practitioners-of-a-religion).
(4) “To think that Blumenthal just randomly showed us all the videos of interviews he did is naive at best. Blumenthal has an agenda. The stupidity of the kids is apparent, moving from one thing to another and them negating what they themselves say.“
Ask him, then. You’re speculating.
“Then you go and do it yourself to Israeli jews by editing and filming stupid racist people and portraying them as the whole society.”
No! No I’m emphatically rejecting that they are the whole society. I’m saying it right here: They Are Not The Whole Society. Are they representative of the mainstream? Yes, probably, but that is not an essential characterization of Israeli society; it’s a characterization of a mainstream (or not, you argue; prove it!)
“how many people did it take Max to find the two groups of people that night?,How much do you want to make a bet it was more than 20 groups meaning less than 10% hold these views? But this is mainstream, right?“
He has repeatedly defended (a) his sampling process and (b) the notion that ferreting out equivalent views in American society would be far far far harder.
(5) “Maybe for a bigot “
As you like, but remember: words mean something. If this is bigotry, which it isn’t, what word are to use when dealing with real, horrendous bigotry? When we see re-emerge the desire for bloodline eradication? And people say, oh, those silly Jews! screaming their heads off about anti-Semitism at the slightest criticism. Such cheapening of the discourse is dangerous, Mike.
2) You said “Jews are hardly an “ethnic group””. You then go on to say “Yes, bloodline obviously has a great deal to do with it”. We are not speaking Halachically. I know many people who consider themselves jewish or part jewish that have only a jewish father. The definition is complicated, but I think there is not doubt that jews initially started out as part of a specific ethnic group. That is how “most” of the time jews are perceived, though i agree with you there are many nuances and complications. For the ultra religious, you wouldn’t be jewish probably just because you are not religious enough. ( I am speculating that you are not observantly religious)
4) In a previous comment you say — “the question is, how hard did Max have to look? I don’t think that hard.“
You then say of me — “Ask him, then. You’re speculating.“
Clearly you are speculating as well?
5) So you are an absolutist? We are talking about mainstream society which you want to represent as a couple of kids babbling incoherently (will you at least agree with me on that) about Obama and not the peace rally that was going on through Tel Aviv (also filmed by Blumenthal). Where do i think the mainstream is? Between the two, but that just wouldn’t be that interesting, would it? It also would not provide you with much needed fodder.
5)– “If this is bigotry, which it isn’t, what word are to use when dealing with real, horrendous bigotry?”
This is an excellent question, which i do not have answer to. Agree with me that it is unfashionable to be anti-semetic in modern times. When I see David Duke saying he is not anti-semitic, he’s just anti “zionist” or Reverend Wright saying the “jews” control obama which he later changes to the “zionists” control Obama, it is legitimately hard to tell. Are there jews that cry foul on every bit of criticism? Undoubtedly. Are there religious zionist nuts that try to depict Obama as a muslim and a racist? Undoubtedly. Is that the mainstream in Israel? Does that depict Israeli television or politics? For you it seems to. The question is why?
A question to you — What criticism would you consider going to far when criticizing jewish Israelis? I would authentically like to hear you answer.
(2) I was slightly unclear; what I meant to write was that Jews can not be reduced to an ethnic group. “That is how “most” of the time jews are perceived, though i agree with you there are many nuances and complications.” Of course, the question of perception is different from self-identification; both matter, for different reasons, not the least of which is when we’re being hunted in a pogrom. This is relevant in other way insofar as Zionism and Israeli nationalism–I’d separate the two–self-constitute; many of the Russian Jews there aren’t really Jewish at all, and receive better treatment than the Mizrahi immigrants, even though it’s the latter that are better educated; I’ve heard in some cases they’re treated worse than the Palestinians. So Jewishness breaks down within itself on ethnic lines within Israel, having to do with the Zionist self-image, Zionism as a particularly European nationalism, etc. This is a bit afield. But simply saying, Jews are an ethnicity, papers over a lot of questions that deserve to be answered rather than begged.
(4) You then say of me — “Ask him, then. You’re speculating.“
Clearly you are speculating as well?
No. Max has said that he didn’t look particularly hard and that many of his interviewees spoke much like that. go to his website; an Israeli Jews says the same thing:
http://maxblumenthal.com/2009/07/feeling-the-hate…
1st comment.
5a) “So you are an absolutist? We are talking about mainstream society which you want to represent as a couple of kids babbling incoherently (will you at least agree with me on that) about Obama and not the peace rally that was going on through Tel Aviv (also filmed by Blumenthal). Where do i think the mainstream is? Between the two, but that just wouldn’t be that interesting, would it? It also would not provide you with much needed fodder.”
No I’m saying based on my readings (haven’t been to Israel in a decade) this seems a not-unfair depiction of Israeli society. You want to stipulate a mainstream farther to the left than these kids. But what if it isn’t? What good does it do to pretend otherwise? As for “fodder,” again, tone.
(5b) “Agree with me that it is unfashionable to be anti-semetic in modern times.“
Fair.
“When I see David Duke saying he is not anti-semitic, he’s just anti “zionist” or Reverend Wright saying the “jews” control obama which he later changes to the “zionists” control Obama, it is legitimately hard to tell.“
Fair. Duke, no doubt correct. Wright may be anti-semitic. He may just be ignorant. I have no idea.
“Undoubtedly. Is that the mainstream in Israel? Does that depict Israeli television or politics? For you it seems to. The question is why?“
Because it accords with what I’ve read and learned about Israeli society. I haven’t been there in some time. I interact with people who do–American Jewish Zionists. Their sentiments don’t come from nowhere–in some measure they come from adopting the Israeli mainstream perspective. No less true for being unpleasant or terrifying.
“A question to you — What criticism would you consider going to far when criticizing jewish Israelis? I would authentically like to hear you answer.”
Give me some examples.
I asked you a simple question — What criticism would you consider going to far when criticizing jewish Israelis?
You can give examples or a set of guidelines, whatever is to your liking.
Is this a creative writing class?
The guidelines are pretty simple: tell the truth.
Another evasive answer.
We have both told the truth as we see it, yet have reached completely different conclusions, one of the marvels of the socials sciences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY
Your remarks here can easily be expressed by any bigot about any other group of people. I’ve heard similar statements made about blacks in the US because proportionally there is much more black crime than white.
“No I’m saying based on my readings (haven’t been to Israel in a decade) this seems a not-unfair depiction of Israeli society. You want to stipulate a mainstream farther to the left than these kids. But what if it isn’t? What good does it do to pretend otherwise?”
I’m not pretending, it seems you are to fit your agenda. Must be hard defending Israel when a large part of the left has targeted it as a scapegoat for the worlds and arab countries problems. History has taught us that during the spanish inquisition amongst those most virulently anti-semitic were former jews themselves, Cristianos Nuevos. Christianos Nuevos for the sake of displaying their new zeal and surviving in a hostile society, persecuted their former co-religionists, writing books against them, and denouncing them. Human nature doesn’t change and history repeats itself.
Mike–
(1) Last chance with this thing called tone. Remember, I think your arguments are as despicable as you think mine are. But I’m “evasive,” my “remarks can easily be expressed by an bigot,” and then subject to a long scribble about human nature, ex-Jews, scapegoating, etc.
(2) You call me evasive, but I systematically deal with your points with evidence and logic. you post links to YouTube videos.
(3) “We have both told the truth as we see it, yet have reached completely different conclusions, one of the marvels of the socials sciences.“
Feynmann’s point is actually a Chomskyan one about the falsity of the social sciences’ pretension to be real sciences, not quite what you say it is. I agree with him. I also agree that we’ve “told the truth as we see it.” The problem is that your blinders may be preventing you from seeing the truth.
(4) “Your remarks here can easily be expressed by any bigot about any other group of people. I’ve heard similar statements made about blacks in the US because proportionally there is much more black crime than white.“
I don’t characterize Jews as a bloc; hence, my sentiments can not be bigoted. Mike, you must understand that Israeli Jews are (a) not monolithic and (b) are a political community, not an ethnicity; attacking their attitudes as a result of being trapped in a militarized state apparatus it not bigotry. I’ve written again and again and again that I’m not essentially characterizing this abstract group called “Jews”; I’m characterizing the mainstream of Israeli society, a totally different thing.
That you’ve heard similar statements about blacks is irrelevant; what’s relevant is the facticity of what we’re discussing right here, right now.
(5) “I’m not pretending, it seems you are to fit your agenda.“
First of all, Mike, the comment was framed as a hypothetical: “You want to stipulate a mainstream farther to the left than these kids. But what if it isn’t? What good does it do to pretend otherwise?“
Second of all, I’m writing based on evidence. You’re saying, “It’s not true!” Cite me some evidence of the mainstream of Israeli society. 94 percent supported the bombing of Gaza. 94 percent! That is an extraordinarily high number.
(6) “Must be hard defending Israel when a large part of the left has targeted it as a scapegoat for the worlds and arab countries problems.“
I don’t know what this means. I don’t defend or attack Israel but specific policies; I don’t defend or attack its people but specific attitudes.
(7) “History has taught us that during the spanish inquisition amongst those most virulently anti-semitic were former jews themselves, Cristianos Nuevos. Christianos Nuevos for the sake of displaying their new zeal and surviving in a hostile society, persecuted their former co-religionists, writing books against them, and denouncing them.”
Is this an accusation?
(8) “Human nature doesn’t change and history repeats itself. ”
Looks like it. Your argument is in pieces on the ground and you have to flay about with this garbage. Is this really all you have? This seems like something I’ll mull over in synagogue next fall.
1) The evasive term was used to describe the response to what I imagined to be a simple request. That request still stands by the way. It would help the debate because it would set a universal guideline as to what you think a bigot or a racist is.
2)?Get with the modern times. I think youtube is a great way to cite and provide evidence for arguments made. (If the video is relevant)
3) Feynman came before Chomsky so his point is his own. What I believe Feynman to be saying is that there are no “physical laws” that we have to adhere to in a debate in social sciences. Conclusions can be made whimsically with out doing all the research and in the end conform to a large extent on emotion. That is why I tried to ask you to give me a platform to work off of. When do you think criticism crosses the line over to bigotry?
4) Funny, you say –I don’t characterize Jews as a bloc
you must understand that Israeli Jews are (a) not monolithic and (b) are a political community, not an ethnicity;
– You say Israeli jews are not “monolithic” but you then in the same sentence cast them all into the same “political community” which you justify attacking by saying “THEIR attitudes are as a result of being trapped in a militarized state apparatus”.????
If they are a political community and are not monolithic why don’t you treat them at the very least by their representatives in government (the different political parties)? If you do, then the same treatment should be given towards the arabs; ie taking their governments and laws as representative.
5) 94% Did not support the bombing in Gaza. They supported an effort to try and end the rocket attacks on the South of Israel. (This reminds me of people who call pro choice advocates, pro abortion advocates. No one is FOR abortion. Just as 99% of Israelis are not FOR bombing gaza.
6) I won’t get into this because I do accept your argument that a debate should remain civil and on point.
7) Just an observation
Enjoy your time at the synagogue. Personally, never been tempted to visit.
(1) Bigotry: “Jews are thieves. Jews are Christ-Killers.” That’s bigotry (although again, one can imagine some scenario in which it isn’t, etc. depending on the knowledge base of the person who said such things). Other than that, tell the truth. I’m not getting into this, and find it a distraction from substantive issues.
(3) Take it as you wish. I think basic rules of rational inquiry, skepticism regarding evidence, etc., matter for social science as much as for physical science. The problem is, there’s an ideological control problem in the social sciences: the problem of apologists for state/capitalist violence/malfeasance. Criticism crosses the line into bigotry when it is analytically inaccurate; bigots hate others for who they are, not what they do. (In this sense it is hard to be a bigot against citizens of a state who are responsible for its policies).
(5) “You say Israeli jews are not “monolithic” but you then in the same sentence cast them all into the same “political community” which you justify attacking by saying “THEIR attitudes are as a result of being trapped in a militarized state apparatus”.????
If they are a political community and are not monolithic why don’t you treat them at the very least by their representatives in government (the different political parties)? If you do, then the same treatment should be given towards the arabs; ie taking their governments and laws as representative.”
Yes, “their” attitudes are the product of being trapped in a militarized state apparatus; some of them still have healthy attitudes. Some dont. I’m not “essentially characterizing” Israeli Jews. They are in the same political community, which is a statement of fact: they live in the same state, same polity. This is not a matter for debate. Within the political community there are differences of opinion. There are fringes; there is the mainstream. Yisrael Beitenu’s electoral success should give some sense of where the mainstream is–this group is openly fascist. I don’t understand why you don’t wish to see this.
I’m happy to treat them by their “representatives”; Netanyahu, for example, whose policy positions I’ve written about at length here, or Tzipi Livni, a horrible, reprehensible woman directly responsible for death and suffering. I am not taking the trouble to reiterate it here; but if you wish to judge Israelis by their representatives, they don’t fare well.
The Arabs don’t live in democracies; they mostly live in autocracies, often propped up by our money and political support. How can we take those governments as representative?
One can also question the identification of a government with its people, especially because I don’t believe in governments.
(5) The rocket attacks are a response to an illegal occupation. This is not a matter of debate. Until steps have been taken to end the illegal occupation, Israel may not use force to defend itself. 94 percent of the public supported an effort to end rocket attacks, attacks that are engendered by the policies they support. Again this is not debatable but a matter of fact. As for your abortion comparison, untrue: abortion and efforts to “try and end the rocket attacks” aren’t some abstraction. They occur in the real world. There, people are responsible for the predictable consequences of their actions. In this case, some 1400 dead, the strip in ruins, etc. The “effort” is not some abstract principle.
(1)About Bigots — “(although again, one can imagine some scenario in which it isn’t, etc. depending on the knowledge base of the person who said such things) “
I think this statement says it all. A Bigot is a bigot unless, ofcourse, he doesn’t have enough of a knowledge base to justify calling him a bigot. Do you extend the same apologistic level of reasoning to other types of bigots (lets say bigots directed against blacks?) I doubt it.
3)(In this sense it is hard to be a bigot against citizens of a state who are responsible for its policies) Its not that hard actually, you do it quite well. It involves focusing on that state, without comparison to other states around it. When you only focus on the problems of a single state in an area and down play problems in other states that is what i call a bigot. You can play with the semantics, but you know exactly what I mean.
5) Here your position is all over place.
“Yisrael Beitenu’s electoral success should give some sense of where the mainstream is–this group is openly fascist“
Take a look at the % of the population that voted for them and ignore the fact that many voted for them for their secular ideals. They got 11% of the vote. That is hardly mainstream. Just to compare. In holland Wilders got a vote of 6% and in England the BNP received 6.26%. Both countries do not face the type of threats Israel faces nor open antisemitic rhetoric in the arab media. The Truth and facts.
5) Thank you for clarifying that you are an anarchist
5) Your remarks that “Israel may not use force to defend itself” is utterly ridiculous. In truth there would be nothing that Israel could do to “justify defending itself”. When it withdrew from lebanon in 2000 according to UN laws, I’m sure you still justify the hizbolla attack in 2006 by saying that Israel had no right to defend itself.
Mikey: I understand that it is hard to stick to the facts and the arguments, especially when you are defending ethnic cleansing, occupation, warfare, torture, war-crimes, and state-terrorism, but could you please, please try?
(1) “I think this statement says it all. A Bigot is a bigot unless, ofcourse, he doesn’t have enough of a knowledge base to justify calling him a bigot. Do you extend the same apologistic level of reasoning to other types of bigots (lets say bigots directed against blacks?) I doubt it.”
Right, this is precisely true, e.g. a truism. Hence I argued below that David Duke is almost certainly a bigot; Wright, whose rhetoric I’m unfamiliar with, I’m more inclined to think is likely ignorant although frankly I have no idea and neither do you. A caveat is different from an apologia.
(3) “Its not that hard actually, you do it quite well. It involves focusing on that state, without comparison to other states around it. When you only focus on the problems of a single state in an area and down play problems in other states that is what i call a bigot. You can play with the semantics, but you know exactly what I mean.”
No, one does not compare Israeli atrocities to those of surrounding states. One, they pale in comparison. Two, we don’t fund them to the same extent. Three, one cannot infer the attitude of a critic of state crimes from the states said critic chooses to criticize. This isn’t “semantics” but rather common sense, to everyone except those who wish to ridicule dissidents.
“Here your position is all over place.”
It’s not, you just don’t understand it.
“Yisrael Beitenu’s electoral success should give some sense of where the mainstream is–this group is openly fascist” ”
“Take a look at the % of the population that voted for them and ignore the fact that many voted for them for their secular ideals. They got 11% of the vote. That is hardly mainstream.”
No, it suggests where the mainstream is i.e. bigoted but not yet wholly committed to fascism.
“Just to compare. In holland Wilders got a vote of 6% and in England the BNP received 6.26%“
Yes, reflecting rising fascism at a time of economic malaise in Europe. Thing is I’m not associated with European crimes by being white the same way I’m associated with Israeli crimes by being Jewish. Funny how that works.
“Both countries do not face the type of threats Israel faces nor open antisemitic rhetoric in the arab media.“
Nor does either country act to increase the level of threats nor abuse the memory of the Holocaust by identifying its specific nationalism with Judaism, thereby associating its actions with Jews, thereby contributing to anti-Semitism. “The Truth and facts.“
Yes, precisely.
“Your remarks that “Israel may not use force to defend itself” is utterly ridiculous. In truth there would be nothing that Israel could do to “justify defending itself”. When it withdrew from lebanon in 2000 according to UN laws, I’m sure you still justify the hizbolla attack in 2006 by saying that Israel had no right to defend itself.”
Sorry to be ridiculous! A state that doesn’t accept any borders nor any laws–on which borders is it defending itself? 1967? 47? Which armistice lines forged by Israeli aggression? Funny how Israel has laid waste repeatedly to Lebanon but we’re ever-so-concerned about–astoundingly–Israel’s right to self-defense! That right does not include invasion rights; go read the UN Charter, then come back here, and maybe you’ll have something intelligent to say.
Mike, I gotta tell you, as an Israeli, you have many misconceptions about this here our society.
The designation of “jew” here has very little to do with ethnicity or religion. It is a designation of caste, meaning, member of the ruling caste of the Israeli society. Many druze and christians may want to be “jewish” in Israel, which is no designation of an ethnic polarizing or religious conversion but a member of the mainstream that finds it very hard to except things non-“jewish” in their country.
You also have a misunderstanding on what is it this thing “mainstream society”? it is not just the stuff you get to see on TV about a foreign country and it don’t come with a highly appreciated censor (and thanks to Youtube for providing THAT!), the views expressed in the Blumenthal videos are very mainstream here. You can hear them everyday every time you talk about politics with Israelis from nearly all walks of life here.
You can easily see these views (about blacks, asians, arabs) if you watched mainstream television here in Israel, it’s in every kind of show, humor of drama, reality or fiction.
our censors are underpaid.
And to Jewbonic, your point about Russian jews needs alot of clarifying here. In the 70s there was a big “aliya” from the good old fSU as Brezhnev had given exit permits to a large number of soviet jews.
They were received like heroes (one cannot overlook the importance of the cold-war factor here) royalty in Israel compared to their “cousins” from the maghreb and the mashraq who arrived during the 50s, who were treated like tolerable refugees (altho very aggressively motivated to migrate to Israel by the ashkenazi zionist elite), this created alot of controversy and protests and thus a formation of our very own Black Panthers youth group (never developed into a party since all the members were teenagers from a poor neighbourhood).
It is a complete fallacy to compare this situation with the arrival of about a million of Russians during the early 90s.
We took alot of bs, the government at the time was playing political volleyball with us between themselves. Towards who will we redirect popular anger about the catastrophic mismanaging of the housing industry? Who to blame for bringing the ruskies over here and destroying the economy? the ruskies ofcourse! (again, another population highly motivated, if not directly muscled to rout to Israel with US and Canada closing borders for jewish arrivals from the good old fSU after considerable zionist pressure.)
I would say that our (we ruskies) situation right now in israel is about the same as mizrahi’s.
We live in the same fringe cities, the same neighbourhoods, and intermarry A LOT
A much bigger fallacy is the claim that mizrahi’s are worse of in any situation than the non-jewish Arab, or Palestinian. It is the same hue and cry over how terrible it is to be a jew in today’s dangerous leftist “arab lover” world only redirected against the ashkenazi elite instead of the christian (and secretly muslim) elite.
We are all members of the ruling caste, we are generals in the military (and it’s cannon fodder, that’s where the naked Class factor comes in), we can live and drive on roads that are forbidden to anybody else except us (unless they are arab or foreign laborers), we can enter the country and leave as we like and when we like it with minimal hassle.
The colonial racist virus doesn’t descriminate by skin tone or ethnicity like the colonial racist does.
Michael,
Thanks for that reply. To clarify re: Russian Jews, you’re right, I was speaking too broadly: “This challenge emerges from the fact that a substantial portion – approximately thirty percent – of Russian immigrants are not Jewish. Non-Jewish Russians have entered Israel under the Law of Return by virtue of having a close Jewish relative; the Law of Return, as amended in 1970, grants this right to anyone with a Jewish spouse, parent, or grandparent. Of course, if the maternal grandmother is Jewish, then the grandchild is Jewish according to religious law – but the Law of Return does not distinguish between matrilineal and patrilineal descent. 5 The result is that there are 300,000 Russian immigrants in Israel who are not recognized as Jewish by the religious authorities. This group alone is more than four percent of the Israeli population, and there are widespread predictions that it will continue to grow, perhaps to 400,000 by 2020.“
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_resear…
I’ve read that they are practicing Christians. I didn’t mean to soft-play the class character of recent immigrant waves either.
Also, I wasn’t saying that “mizrahi’s are worse of in any situation than the non-jewish Arab, or Palestinian,” just that I had heard anecdotes of the racism (not institutional racism) against them surpassing that directed against non-Jewish Arabs; I’m not particularly wedded to those anecdotes).
Your points about Zionism’s collusion with class-warfare are well-taken.
Michael,
Thanks for that reply. To clarify re: Russian Jews, you’re right, I was speaking too broadly: “This challenge emerges from the fact that a substantial portion – approximately thirty percent – of Russian immigrants are not Jewish. Non-Jewish Russians have entered Israel under the Law of Return by virtue of having a close Jewish relative; the Law of Return, as amended in 1970, grants this right to anyone with a Jewish spouse, parent, or grandparent. Of course, if the maternal grandmother is Jewish, then the grandchild is Jewish according to religious law – but the Law of Return does not distinguish between matrilineal and patrilineal descent. 5 The result is that there are 300,000 Russian immigrants in Israel who are not recognized as Jewish by the religious authorities. This group alone is more than four percent of the Israeli population, and there are widespread predictions that it will continue to grow, perhaps to 400,000 by 2020.“
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_resear…
I’ve read that they are practicing Christians. I didn’t mean to soft-play the class character of recent immigrant waves either.
Also, I wasn’t saying that “mizrahi’s are worse of in any situation than the non-jewish Arab, or Palestinian,” just that I had heard anecdotes of the racism (not institutional racism) against them surpassing that directed against non-Jewish Arabs; I’m not particularly wedded to those anecdotes).
Your points about Zionism’s collusion with class-warfare are well-taken.
Jewbonic, I phrased myself badly, I meant to say that there’s no position worse in Israel than being Palestinian Arabs.
Michael,
You claim I have “misconceptions” and you, as an “Israeli”, are better endowed to resolve those misconceptions. Your claims are easily refuted. You claim that:
“You can easily see these views (about blacks, asians, arabs) if you watched mainstream television here in Israel, it’s in every kind of show, humor of drama, reality or fiction.“
Please name a specific show from one of the major channels in Israel — 1,2 and 10 that depicts arabs or any other race in the way jews are depicted on arab or persian television. Do I have to remind you that “The protocols of Zion” has been aired in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran, just to name a few, on mainstream television. If “It’s in every kind of show” please name one.
Just as an example that the world is watching and judging Israeli t.v. shows — a few months ago when the vulgar, secular, antitheist comedian Lior Schlein, mocked the fact that people believe Jesus walked on water or that the virgin mary was a virgin when she gave birth, the skit was condemned by non other than the Vatican itself. Guess they haven’t been watching what goes on in the US with Bill Maher and others.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/…
People went as far as to say it was on the same playing field with holocaust denial.
Let me solve some of your misconceptions in your remarks to jewbonics. The main difference between the Aliyah in the 70’s and the Aliyah in the 90’s relates to the self identification and the reasons for coming of the people. The 70’s movement, which could loosely be said to have been headed by Nathan Sheransky, was made up of people who identified themselves fully as jews, whether religiously or culturally and came to Israel at a time when, economically speaking, it was not in anyway better to live in Israel than to live in Russia. They were determined to integrate themselves into Israeli society.
The 90’s Aliyah was spearheaded by people moving to Israel for mainly economical reasons. Many of the immigrants did not see themselves as jews or Israelis for that matter, and used a clause that was there to protect people of jewish descent from nazi like crimes. You had cases where Neo-Nazi groups were even formed in Israel!!
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=118941…
The new immigrants did not relate to Israeli society. They were and are generally more right wing than mainstream Israeli society — as can be manifested with Avigdor Leiberman and his “Israel beitenu”. They also make up a large part of the settlement movement.
Finally before you go calling Israelis ” The colonial racist virus doesn’t descriminate by skin tone or ethnicity like the colonial racist does.“
Read some history. One name that jumps to mind is nehemia cohen. The second most decorated soldier in the Israeli army who’s family had resided in jerusalem long before the turks or the British showed up. Ever heard of him? So next time, spare us your insistence on correcting us of our “misconceptions about this here our society” from an “israeli”.
Mike, Israel has more than 3 channels, what are we living in the 80s? white christians are quite abit off limits territory as the butt of jokes, but.. c’mon? … “kooshim”? “sinim”? “teimanim primitiveem”? “hasmolanim ohavei hamehablim”? c’mon!
But you are correct that the vast majority of the 90s immigration wave was economic emigration and not what you’d call of “classic zionism” motives. That’s why many have left just a few years into their arrival.
The 30% estimate of christians emigrating still leaves 70% non-christians “jews”, but the bulk of both “halves” of this population have found it also a good option to opt for the “jewish” caste and have more or less been accepted into Zionism.
Some of those have failed to receive their self entitlement as members of the ruling caste of Israel and have opted for the extreme position of Hitlerism.
The option of Hitlerism is not all THAT “shocking” that it exists inside the Israeli colonial mindwork, whose entire existence is based on ethnic national superiority over an indigenous people who found themselves on the loosing side.
The jackbooted are all over this country, but the difference is that they’re good Zionist patriots and will only attack a fellow jew as result of either road rage, a “really bad mood today”, or as a result of “misunderstanding with a school teacher who doesn’t think my precious son is an angel”.
The miniscule minority that are the Hitlerian brats decided to extend that jackbooted ideology to all the jews, not just palestinians.
But than again why regard it with any relevance to Israeli society as a whole when we can just dismiss it all as “well, they’re not REALLY jews”.
I gotta hand it to you about this, i never heard the name Nehamia Cohen but have YOU heard of Haim Hanegbi?
He’s also a native palestinian jew who calls for one state on historic palestine, a state for all it’s people.
You don’t have to go so far as to give example of palestinian jew who serves zionism, there are many native agents, either muslim or christian or druze who serve the Israeli military. Again that natural desire to edge closer to the ruling caste.
אחים שלי!
As a possible carrier of the Aaron chromosomal haplotype, I beseech you to calm down!
Does anyone here have information about some current, seriously carried poll on tolerance in Israel? Or are such polls prohibited? Like: would you mind having a Muslim Arab as a neighbour? For the sake of completeness it would nice to have the same poll taken in the West Bank and Gaza.
If you are not religious and yet you insist on your offspring to marry “Jewish”, what is your point in doing so? (this is not rhetorical)And then: what kind of Jewish would your offspring need to marry? Those whose mothers are Jewish or can they marry those who converted to Judaism?
My mother tongue is Spanish. I would like my children to speak Spanish and know about their Latin American culture. I don’t live in Latin America and although my partner speaks Spanish, it is not her mother tongue. I don’t expect my descendants’ ‘Latin Americaness’ to last forever if they stay in Europe.
Until when do you — those of you not living in Israel — expect your descendants in, say, the US to be Jewish?
I know there are like (amountOfJews)x7 of ways to see Jewish identity, but I am curious what would happen if we were to list them all, with their conditions on what Jewish means and should entail:
“a Jew is X and Y and should do W and Z” or
“a Jew is X or Z1 and can do Z3 and Z4”
and then calculate the percentages of Jews who identify with one or more of those criteria.
Then I would like to present those criteria to all kinds of people
but instead of writing “Jew”, I would like to put some other group (like Senegalese or Chinese) and see if people consider that a racialist statement.
As for the Jews being an ethnic group first: this is like the chicken and the egg. Have you guys read The Bible Unearthed?